Iron and Hormones – The Deficiency Link with Michael Rutherford

July 2, 2024 By Leanne Vogel February 4, 2025

Transcript

Michael Rutherford [00:00:00]

A lack of red blood cells or hemoglobin, meaning not enough oxygen delivery, well, that’s going to impact the oxygen supply to your ovaries and your uterus, the ability to be fertile. If we’re missing those things, your body is going to struggle to make and release a healthy egg. So the lack of oxygen can directly impact the egg quality that you’re releasing.

Leanne Vogel [00:00:20]

Hello and welcome. Today we are chatting about anemia and just everything to do with iron and maybe an angle that you haven’t discovered yet, which is its impact on your hormone regulation. So I’m really excited to have my friend Michael Rutherford on the show. He’s been on the show previously chatting about all things blood work. If you remember, a couple of years ago, I did a blood work course and really started integrating functional blood chemistry into my one on one practice. And Michael was really the driver for that. He and I met a couple of years ago. He chatted about the thyroid in ways that I had never heard before.

Leanne Vogel [00:01:01]

He was so educated and so knowledgeable and knew just things that I just never, ever heard. And so after that interview, I took his course and I learned so much from him about functional blood chemistry. It has completely transformed the way I look at my health, the way I assist my clients. It’s just brought so many good things to my life. So Michael is a functional nutritionist with nearly a decade of experience working with complex cases from diabetes to autoimmune and even mold illness. He has also been educating other practitioners on how to use functional labs such as blood chemistry, for the last four years. He is such a great educator. In today’s episode, we do mention his course, which goes live in another week from now.

Leanne Vogel [00:01:53]

Class begins July 9th. So if after listening to today’s episode, you’re like, wow, I want to learn more about this. I love this topic. I want to dive deep. I’m going to include a link in the show notes today and if you use the code Leanne, you cash in on some savings. So let’s cut over to our conversation with Michael. All about true iron deficiency. What’s going on with iron deficiency versus a lack of usable iron? We’re going to talk about the need for copper, vitamin A, adrenal issues, how this impacts your ability to absorb and use iron correctly.

Leanne Vogel [00:02:32]

We’re going to be talking about their implications on hormones, contraindications for different organ supplements, how to treat iron deficiency versus usable iron issues, and so much more. You are going to learn so much about iron that you never even knew you needed to know. Okay, let’s cut over to today’s interview with Michael. Hey, my name is Leanne and I’m fascinated with helping women navigate how to eat, move and care for their bodies. This has taken me on a journey from vegan keto, high protein to everything in between. I’m a small town holistic nutritionist turned three time international bestselling author turned functional medicine practitioner, offering telemedicine services around the globe to women looking to better their health and stop second guessing themselves. I’m here to teach you how to wade through the wellness noise to get to the good stuff that’ll help you achieve your goals. Whether you’re seeking relief from chronic ailments, striving for peak performance, or simply eager to live a more vibrant life, this podcast is your go to resource for actionable advice and inspiration.

Leanne Vogel [00:03:38]

Together, we’ll uncover the interconnectedness of nutrition, movement, sleep, stress management and mindset, empowering you to make informed choices that support your unique health journey. Think of it as quality time with your bestie mixed with a little med school so you’re empowered. At your next doctor visit, get ready to be challenged and encouraged while you learn about your body and how to care for it healthfully. Join me as we embrace vitality, reclaim our innate potential, and discover what it truly means to pursue healthfulness. Michael, how’s it going?

Michael Rutherford [00:04:21]

It is going great. The sun’s out, so that’s happy here in the Pacific Northwest.

Leanne Vogel [00:04:26]

Yeah, same with us. We have had like non stop rain for so long, I forget what the sun feels like on my skin. I say non stop. It was like three days.

Michael Rutherford [00:04:35]

This is a year in Florida. I grew up in Florida. I know what it non stop rain there means compared to here. We don’t see it for six months straight.

Leanne Vogel [00:04:44]

I just couldn’t even like, I couldn’t. I was actually having a conversation with a friend today. She was like, vancouver, it’d be so nice to live there. I’m like, if you want to be depressed all the time, I couldn’t do it.

Michael Rutherford [00:04:54]

Yeah, it’s rough.

Leanne Vogel [00:04:55]

Sunlight, lamps all the way all the time. That would be me.

Michael Rutherford [00:04:58]

We can’t wait to not have to live in this area.

Leanne Vogel [00:05:01]

I’m sure you do. I am sure you do. It’s been a hot minute since you’ve been on the show. You’ve been on the show quite a few times. You are brilliant. I was so impressed by you the first time you came on. You blew my mind. And then I was like, how do I learn everything that you know? And I’ve basically stalked you for the last three years to learn everything that you know.

Leanne Vogel [00:05:21]

And I still have not scratched the surface, so. Welcome back.

Michael Rutherford [00:05:26]

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t even remember. I know we’ve done thyroid. I don’t remember what the last time was, but, yeah, you know, it’s crazy because that was probably two summers ago, because wasn’t it right before the wedding? I feel like it was right before.

Leanne Vogel [00:05:39]

It was that summer, let me tell you. It was August 1, 2021.

Michael Rutherford [00:05:44]

Yeah. Literally two weeks before. Which was funny because then we were going, no, I think that was the release. We’d recorded it earlier.

Leanne Vogel [00:05:50]

Yeah, we must have.

Michael Rutherford [00:05:52]

I think we recorded it in, like, June. But every once in a while, I still get referrals from that.

Leanne Vogel [00:05:57]

That’s so cool.

Michael Rutherford [00:05:59]

Someone still trickles in. I like. I love it when someone trickles in from it. I’m like, that’s crazy. Like, you had to have been. And I’ll say on the call, I’m like, you had to have been, like, back in the archives, and it’s usually they’re specifically looking up, like, keto and thyroid or women and thyroid for podcasts or something like that.

Leanne Vogel [00:06:17]

Well. And so many people don’t know that their players, like, their podcast players have a search function for the episode, like, the show that you’re on. And I use that so much for my own show. When somebody’s like, have you done an episode on thyroid? I’m like, let me check. I know I have.

Michael Rutherford [00:06:32]

But, like, we find them.

Leanne Vogel [00:06:34]

Let me find them. But I mean, yeah, there’s like a. We’re at episode 480 today. And that’s like. That’s so many hours. That’s so much talking and so much learning for all of us. And I remember when you came.

Michael Rutherford [00:06:48]

Hundreds coming up. That’s amazing.

Leanne Vogel [00:06:50]

I know, it’s crazy. When you came on the show, you were talking about blood work and thyroid and saying things that I had never even known existed. And today, I’m sure you’re going to blow my mind, even though I’ve been learning from you since that very day. We’re going to talk about anemias and, like, what that is, because I think a lot of people think anemia is iron. So what’s going on with the anemia thing? What is anemia? And where do we even start in this conversation?

Michael Rutherford [00:07:16]

Yeah. So anemia at. You know, we could explain it a couple, you know, different ways. But realistically, the bottom line of anemia is that there is a lack of oxygen delivery to the cells and that is a combination and. Or one or the other a lack of red blood cells, most importantly, a lack of hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is the primary component inside your red blood cells. Majority of people, often that I find, especially with nutritional issues, have enough red blood cells. Their body, their bone marrow can produce the red blood cells, but they can’t produce the hemoglobin.

Michael Rutherford [00:07:52]

Now, there’s a subset of people where we’re destroying red blood cells or we’re losing a lot. You know, so a lot of women who have hormonal issues, especially when they have really heavy menses, they are probably going to lack red blood cells and hemoglobin, but often just nutritional deficiencies. We see plenty of red blood cells. I see it all the time. And then their hemoglobin is low. The other problem we have is that so often we just say it’s like we use iron deficiency and anemia as if they’re the same thing and they’re completely separate. We can have iron deficiency and no anemia. In fact, some people actually have iron deficiency and excess red blood cells, or vice versa.

Michael Rutherford [00:08:29]

We have anemia and excess iron, so we can have those two move interdependently of each other. The problem, what happens is the most common cause of anemia is iron deficiency anemia. But then we have to separate that into true iron deficiency and what we call a bioavailable iron deficiency anemia. And so what’s bioavailable iron deficiency basically means you might have enough iron in your body, but your body can’t utilize it. It’s kind of hidden, it’s pushed away, and your body can’t access it. So you might be riddled with iron. In fact, this is probably the most common issue here in the US and this is big. If anyone follows, you know, a lot of this space in Instagram or TikTok and you hear about, you know, the Root Cause protocol or Morley Robbins or Pro Metabolic, there’s so much talk around this, and it’s difficult because there’s a lot of truth and there’s a lot of oversimplification and always this and XYZ and some just outright wrong statements.

Michael Rutherford [00:09:36]

And some of them are honestly dangerous. And that’s the problem is it’s very convincing and there’s enough truth packed into all of it that you just start to believe everything they say. But, you know, one of the truths is that a lot of people aren’t dealing with too little iron, but too much iron. The problem is how we identify that and what that looks like and how we deal with it. So those are, I’m sure, some of the things we can unpack here.

Leanne Vogel [00:10:04]

I have so many questions. Okay, so you’re saying that there’s a true iron deficiency, meaning the body does not have enough iron. And in those cases we would take iron to fix that problem, right?

Michael Rutherford [00:10:19]

Yeah. So if we truly had, you know, some of the groups that we’re going to see this in, vegans, super common, because even though there’s quote unquote, lots of iron in these plant foods, it’s very hard to actually access and digest those and absorb those. They don’t work very well. And there really isn’t a ton of iron in most things. So it’s very common to see iron deficiency in them. The second one that I can think of would be women who have really heavy menses here in the US Those are going to be the two most common causes of just pure iron deficiency. We could jump down the parasite pathway, you know, and look at that as well. I think kind of the two most common are going to be vegans and the women who just have historically heavy menses.

Michael Rutherford [00:11:03]

I had a client who was doing all the right things, Nutrition, she was even consuming some organs. But the amount of her menses was like six to eight times what it was supposed to be. And the problem was that that was for a while. And then this, like where we were at was she was like, well, it’s probably half of what it used to be. Well, the problem is that’s still four times as much as it should be. So she just, she was so depleted. Her functional medicine doctor had actually been like, you need to go right now to get an iron, like a blood transfusion, like today, right now, like emergency. And for multiple reasons, that wasn’t an option for her actually.

Michael Rutherford [00:11:42]

And we actually got her back to optimal in eight weeks. Optimal in eight weeks. We got her out of the danger zone in like three to four weeks. It was mind blowing. But in those cases, yeah, we gave iron and we gave organs and we can talk about specific, you know, which organs we use and when. But a lot of what you’ll hear in, you know, kind of our space, this holistic space, is never give iron. And I’m not a believer in that. My wife took iron during pregnancy and she took it postpartum.

Michael Rutherford [00:12:08]

And I think those are great times when the labs show it that 100% supplemental iron can be fantastic and honestly life saving and just helping with so many issues. And there are times where ideally first we’ll use food and organ supplements. Yes, but there’s a time and a place for using actual iron.

Leanne Vogel [00:12:28]

So you’re saying that there’s true deficiency, iron deficiency, and then there’s something else that can be confused as needing iron, but they don’t actually need iron. What’s going on there and why is this happening?

Michael Rutherford [00:12:43]

Yeah, I wish this is where I was. Like, I could bring out my visual aids and be like, I know you’re.

Leanne Vogel [00:12:47]

So good at it. Like, grab the whiteboard, let’s go.

Michael Rutherford [00:12:50]

Yeah, I’m good at visual aids. My drawing isn’t the best, but I can create it on canva. So, you know, one of the things is that if we were to look at the markers that identify iron deficiency, if we’re just looking at the basic markers like our hemoglobin, our red blood cells, our serum iron, our ferritin, our iron saturation tibc, these kind of core markers around iron is. We can’t actually differentiate between true iron deficiency and a lack of bioavailable iron. So a lack of usable iron, which could be copper or vitamin A, or adrenal issues that are causing the body to not be able to access the iron that it’s absorbed. So you’re absorbing it in your gut, but your body can’t actually utilize it. And so it’s, it’s locked and so it looks like iron deficiency. The problem is those two different scenarios look the exact same.

Michael Rutherford [00:13:41]

If we only look at those markers, which most standard doctors aren’t even running all of that, you’re lucky if you get the CBC for your red blood cells and hemoglobin and ferritin. And if those look okay, then they’re like, eh, you don’t have an issue or you do, it’s just iron deficiency. You know, if all those are low, you’re like, okay, it’s just iron deficiency. Here’s iron. And in two months you go back because it’s not better and they give you more iron. And two months later you go back and they give you more iron and you’re like, what’s that quote about repeating the same thing, expecting a different, like, oh, but we changed the dose. And you’re at such a ridiculous dose of your RDA that honestly you’re probably getting to toxic levels. One of the most common calls for children into the toxic, whatever the like toxic network, like emergency network that you call in is children consume like getting a hold of supplements and usually iron containing supplements because it’s really easy for them to become iron toxic because it doesn’t take that much.

Michael Rutherford [00:14:42]

And we’re pumping so many people full of just more and more, more expecting a different result just because we gave them more. Because even the vast majority of doctors don’t understand the very basics of iron regulation, which is honestly quite scary considering how widespread the that problem seems to be.

Leanne Vogel [00:15:02]

So you’re saying there’s true iron deficiency where iron is actually needed and the other option is kind of a lack of the usable iron due to. So your body has the iron, but it can’t use the iron that it has available.

Michael Rutherford [00:15:17]

Let’s say. I don’t know how well this is going to go over if we put this into financial. But let’s just say you have some sort of retirement fund, right? And it’s a retirement fund that you can’t access. Some sort of like 401k or something that you can’t really access. You could have $100,000 in there and you could be behind on your bills, but you can’t access that money without some crazy penalties. And you’re. You’re kind of. Well, right.

Michael Rutherford [00:15:40]

You’re sitting there with. With nothing to do. It’s like, I’ve got all this money, but I can’t actually access it. That’s what’s happening with your body.

Leanne Vogel [00:15:47]

So why do we care about this topic? Why do I care about iron whether it’s usable or not, or why does it matter to me?

Michael Rutherford [00:15:55]

Yeah, well, one, people feel terrible, right? So we’re going to. Especially, you know, we’ve got fatigue. How many of us are dealing with fatigue? How many women are dealing with fatigue and hair loss? I would imagine a lot that are following you now with all the hair stuff that you’ve been going on about. This hair situation, it is, it’s been so amazing actually. Like every time I like, see what you. I’m like, no way. Because I again, we saw it about two years ago before my hair was not like this.

Leanne Vogel [00:16:24]

It’s crazy. I keep looking in the mirror like, whose hair is this?

Michael Rutherford [00:16:29]

Is that mine? So, you know, hair loss and, you know, a lot of women think about thyroid and it may be in. Part of the issue is your iron deficiency could be causing your thyroid problems. Right? And vice versa. The problem is your thyroid. Low thyroid then contributes to anemia issues. They go hand in hand. But fatigue is a big one. Feeling cold, a lot of symptoms, honestly, that often get attributed to thyroid.

Michael Rutherford [00:16:52]

One of the potentials, if you’re being told your thyroid isn’t that bad or looks okay, could be anemia. A big one is like if you have trouble walking up a flight of stairs, you probably have big time anemia chewing on ice. If you habitually chew ice. I forget what the name of it. This is actually called. There’s like a name for this. It’s a big deal. And so this is what, like my sister, my sister in law, we were, I think it was like Thanksgiving.

Michael Rutherford [00:17:18]

I literally like threw bottles of supplements at them. I’m like, take this. Because they were just like talking about how much they chew ice. I’m like, stop. Like, no, that’s not, that’s not an okay. Like they carry like a whole Stanley cup of ice and just chew it.

Leanne Vogel [00:17:33]

Yeah, because they’re iron deficient or it causes iron.

Michael Rutherford [00:17:37]

No, it’s the iron deficiency will cause that symptom. I don’t know why, but it literally like makes you crave the like chewing ice. This isn’t even like a fringe, like functional medicine thing. That’s a well known symptom of iron deficiency.

Leanne Vogel [00:17:51]

I literally hate chewing ice. Why would you do this? Okay, okay. I had no idea. That’s incredible. Convenient food generally equals trash ingredients. And the health food bars today contain just as much sugar as a candy bar. If they’re labeled as high protein, the source is generally low quality whey and they lack nutritional support of any kind. 92% of the population is deficient in at least one nutrient which can contribute to fatigue, brittle hair and other annoying symptoms and an increased risk of disease.

Leanne Vogel [00:18:27]

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Leanne Vogel [00:19:27]

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Leanne Vogel [00:20:06]

Now when it comes to the copper vitamin A, adrenal issues with the lack of usable iron. Are there things that we need to understand? Because I’m thinking of a lady that goes in to see her doctor, they’re running like maybe ferritin, if we’re lucky, maybe, maybe ferritin. Usually they’ll just see if hemoglobin’s low enough. Then they’ll be like, maybe we should check ferritin. But let’s just say the doctor did all the tests and they say that they have an iron deficiency. And so they start taking iron, they feel no better. Then they’re kind of thinking, okay, well is this a lack of usable iron? What do we do with that? Like how do we, how do we unpack that? How do we know?

Michael Rutherford [00:20:46]

You know, first just to look at one of the ways that I practice with my clients and honestly how I teach, I am so much more of a, what’s the cheapest, most effective, quickest way to get a result, to see if something is. So if I, you know, once some people are like, oh, you know, we hit this problem now because of these test results, we need to go order these test results before we do anything. And you could do that, you can then go and run a bunch of markers to start looking into all of that. Or you could simply take something like beef liver pills, four to six a day. Because what it is, is one of the most common reasons why you don’t have enough available iron in your system is a lack of a protein called ceruloplasmin. This ceruloplasmin protein, it’s one of its primary roles is to convert that iron from a non usable form to the usable form so that your body can pick it up. And what the primary factors to create that ceruloplasmin are real whole food, animal based vitamin A. So retinol and copper.

Michael Rutherford [00:21:46]

Where do we get the most abundant source of both of those together? Beef liver. There’s no better way to get both of those nutrients in one. Now the other nice thing Is it also contains all the other cofactor nutrients we need to make to regulate iron and to make hemoglobin. We’ve got B vitamins in there, we’ve got zinc, we’ve got the iron, there’s some iron. Most people think beef liver capsules are so great for anemia because of the iron. If that was the case, I’d be taking spleen, in which some case I do. But more often than not, the liver works so well for iron deficiency and anemia because of the cofactors. We have the issue of there’s plenty of iron in the body.

Michael Rutherford [00:22:24]

We don’t have enough cofactors to regulate it. And what’s so amazing, we can have this iron dispersed all throughout our tissues and organs, causing problems and not being used by the body. Finally, start making ceruloplasm. And that ceruloplasm will go and clean up and pull the iron from the tissues and organs and allow your body to start making heme and hemoglobin and utilize that iron. This is to the point where often, like, I truly don’t think there’s enough iron in beef liver capsules to cause iron overload. What happens is this person has so much iron stored up, unusable in their body, and they make enough ceruleoplasty to start pulling all of that out. And they had so much, it’s being all pulled out into their system to where it is measurable, it is usable, and it looks like iron overload. It’s like, no, no, we actually need to stay on the beef liver at that dose.

Michael Rutherford [00:23:17]

And then we might need to donate or do other things to get rid of that blood until it evens out. Outside of genetic hemochromatosis, basically, anyone should be able to take beef liver capsules every day and not have iron overload. Now, do I think that we should all take beef liver capsules every single day? No. I’m a much bigger fan of organ blends versus just singular liver. Because we should be eating nose to tail, not nose to liver. Right? So we should be getting all of the organs. But liver in really specific circumstances is amazing because of the nutrients it does contain, such as this. And so oftentimes, as someone who comes back as I like, they’re pretty iron deficient.

Michael Rutherford [00:23:52]

It’s not extreme, you know, and they’ve got some anemia. I’ll usually start with beef liver capsules and see what happens. And I would say Two thirds to 75% of the time that brings everything up. They just had a lack of availability unless we look at their symptoms. We’ve got a woman who has really heavy menses and she has for years. I’m not starting with just liver because I know there’s probably just full on iron deficiency in that case.

Leanne Vogel [00:24:14]

So are you saying we shouldn’t test ceruloplasmin and go down that rabbit hole? You’re saying before you even go there, just throw in an organ supplement and just see how it goes?

Michael Rutherford [00:24:26]

Because what are you going to do when that ceruloplasmin and vitamin A come back low and the clock will come back?

Leanne Vogel [00:24:31]

Yeah, you’re going to do the same thing.

Michael Rutherford [00:24:32]

You’re going to take those nutrients to get there. So why not start there, give it two months and then retest. You can run all those other ones and go to bed, but it’s like you can get the liver capsules in two days on Amazon. I mean you could go on Amazon and get them overnighted to you. Right. Or get them two day prime shipping or whatever and start right away instead of getting the lab order, going to the lab, waiting for the results and all this and then waiting the two days to get yourself. It’s like just go ahead and get started. And it’s amazing how quick someone can start to feel better too.

Michael Rutherford [00:24:59]

I mean I’ve had people who started and they’re within days like, oh my gosh, like I have energy again because everybody’s like, oh my gosh, I can make hemoglobin and I can start delivering oxygen to all of my tissues and organs and actually do things.

Leanne Vogel [00:25:11]

What’s your favorite liver supplement and what’s your favorite organ supplement? Because I know people are going to be like Leanne, why didn’t you ask?

Michael Rutherford [00:25:20]

Yeah. So full scripts. So access to fullscript from sure you give people is the cotage brand. I’ve honestly been so happy with so many of especially their organs. One they’re the only company still on fullscript that gives all the individual organs, which I love. There are some other companies that aren’t available on fullscript who have the individual organs that you can get and they have an organ blend. The prices are just great too. And the reality is 90% of these grass fed beef organs you’re getting all come from the same source.

Michael Rutherford [00:25:51]

So what you’re paying for most of the time is just crazy branding. So all these other brands that are more expensive and other place they’re usually it’s all the same product because they’re all being harvested from the same place a lot of in, you know, collagens. I know is a tough subject around here.

Leanne Vogel [00:26:05]

I was going to say collagen peptides. Same thing. It’s the exact same.

Michael Rutherford [00:26:10]

But it’s the collagen peptides. It’s the same thing. And I. That information comes from one of the big companies. In fact, three of the big collagen peptide companies share a facility.

Leanne Vogel [00:26:21]

Yep, I found that one out.

Michael Rutherford [00:26:23]

When one is low, they just borrow and buy from the other. If their inventory is low, they just buy it from the other to move it across the warehouse. That’s all this is. You’re just paying some sometimes, I mean, it’s like trying to buy product. Collagen peptides.

Leanne Vogel [00:26:39]

Yes. And that’s why I don’t take those products anymore, because it’s literal trash. And that’s a whole other conversation for another time.

Michael Rutherford [00:26:47]

Go there. But.

Leanne Vogel [00:26:49]

Okay, so contraindications of organ supplements. You said hemochromatosis. Anyone else that maybe shouldn’t just. Because here’s what’s going to happen. A woman listening right now is like, I think I should just try an organ supplement. And I just, I want to make sure that it’s safe and they shouldn’t just throw it in if they shouldn’t.

Michael Rutherford [00:27:09]

Yeah. So I would say outside of hemochromatosis, an organ blend, you’re hard pressed to find someone I would not recommend that for. If we went with liver, we could have some concerns. Someone if they’ve got some copper. You know, we get into the whole issue. You’ve done HTCAs. We have the whole issue of like hidden copper toxicity and that whole problem. There’s enough copper, especially in there, we could have some issues.

Michael Rutherford [00:27:33]

And then that goes back to adrenals and getting adrenals on board. And so. And that’s where that’s kind of the other factor into ceruleoplasm is sometimes people are taking the vitamin A, they’re taking the carbon, taking the beef liver, and it’s. Their ceruleoplast is not moving. If that’s the case, it’s almost always back to adrenal problems. And so that’s a much slower process, getting the adrenals back on board than just like getting some nutrients in. And so that. And you know, this is the point where it’s like, hey, maybe we start to work with a practitioner, really start to narrow this down, get the right labs, have the correct interpretation so that we can start to see what really is the underlying cause of all this.

Michael Rutherford [00:28:11]

Making sure there aren’t parasites that are sucking up all the iron and your hemoglobin and those things too.

Leanne Vogel [00:28:16]

Okay, so I want to track this conversation. So far we’re saying that there’s true iron deficiency where you actually just need iron. Then there’s a lack of usable iron generally due to those cofactors being required like the copper, the vitamin A. And then what you just said, and you hinted at it previously of the adrenal issues. So I’m thinking of the lady who thinks that she has iron deficiency. She’s now done an organ supplement. Nothing’s really shifting. Then you would kind of put her in the bucket of like there’s something going on with the adrenals.

Leanne Vogel [00:28:49]

Would that be like a fair flow so far?

Michael Rutherford [00:28:51]

Yeah. I mean, so it could be parasites, it could be adrenals, it could be, you know, maybe we lack digestive ability to absorb these nutrients. Iron being a mineral and copper being a mineral. These are bound to proteins in nature, in our foods. And so if we can’t digest our proteins, we don’t digest our minerals very well either. So this is where usually it’s like, hey, try these really simple things. Take some B flavor capsules for two months, take the full dose. Six is basically the full dose of all of them except for one brand I can think of which I wouldn’t order from anyways because they also sell collagen peptides in Costco.

Leanne Vogel [00:29:26]

It rhymes with mitral moteins.

Michael Rutherford [00:29:28]

They’re blue.

Leanne Vogel [00:29:30]

No, we can straight up, I’ve been straight up. It’s vital proteins.

Michael Rutherford [00:29:34]

Don’t just don’t, don’t get any of their things but you know, otherwise basically everyone else has a 500 milligram capsule. It’s six capsules. If you did that for two months and your iron deficiency emia did not get better audits. For me, I’m just like, it’s time to work with someone. You can try these really simple low hanging fruits because sometimes that’s all it takes and we don’t need to spend the hundreds or sometimes even thousands to work with someone. When it was like all you had to do is take some liver capsules. Cool. I feel better.

Michael Rutherford [00:30:04]

I don’t have anything else going on. That’s fine. Some people are that way. Some people have multiple layers. And you can spend years and five times as much money trying all the different things than if you would have just made that investment. Now it seems like a lot because it’s that upfront, but it saves you so much money over the long haul. If you just get a Good practitioner, probably. You know, that’s a tough.

Michael Rutherford [00:30:31]

And that’s a tough one, because it’s not even like, oh, just go to a functional medicine practitioner. Because a lot of them are garbage. A lot of them are garbage. And the reality, it’s just an unregulated field, which, politically speaking, I’m totally okay with. But that means you have to be really responsible for who you hire and do your homework on that person. And it’s hard.

Leanne Vogel [00:30:49]

It is really hard.

Michael Rutherford [00:30:50]

So come to me early on. That’s the easy fix.

Leanne Vogel [00:30:53]

My job, we’re vetted by ourselves.

Michael Rutherford [00:31:00]

I mean, if you’re here listening to the podcast, you probably already trust Leanne.

Leanne Vogel [00:31:04]

I mean, I would hope so. I take it very seriously. Oh, my goodness. Trust is, like, such a big deal for me. Yeah. I mean, even in the case of copper, if I think of how many individuals are copper toxic? And even just the copper is not even available, and it’s just all locked up. And usually mercury has something to do with that. Lead has something to do with that.

Leanne Vogel [00:31:26]

Cadmium can play a role. And so then we’re talking about metals.

Michael Rutherford [00:31:30]

Yeah, you’ve got metals, and you’ve got adrenals, because what happens is the copper can’t get into the ceruloplasm because the body isn’t making it due to the adrenals. And if the copper can’t load into the cerular plastic, it starts to build up, and then you’ve got minerals displacing it. And. Yeah, so this is where we get into that huge issue where it’s like, we might have to utilize a couple different tests to kind of see what’s going on, because this should work for an individual. And if it’s not, it’s like, hey, we got to figure out what’s going on.

Leanne Vogel [00:31:56]

An iron conversation wouldn’t be complete without talking about cast iron pans.

Michael Rutherford [00:32:01]

Yeah. Stay away all.

Leanne Vogel [00:32:03]

Everyone should just not use.

Michael Rutherford [00:32:05]

So here’s the thing. A lot of people are like, it’s super ancestral. We use them for, you know, hundreds of years. And so it should be good. Yes. And we don’t live like that. So women 200 years ago don’t have the adrenal problems we do today. They don’t have the toxicities we do today.

Michael Rutherford [00:32:23]

Their body could regulate that iron. We are in such a state now. It’s so hard to regulate that. Iron men, especially, are super prone today due to iron overload because we’re not doing manual labor. We’re not out in fields. We’re not Getting cut all the time. We don’t. We’re not having this just slow blood loss all the time from just like nicks and scratches and cuts and that ancestrally, that’s what happened.

Michael Rutherford [00:32:47]

You know, if we just go back through time is that we were just often getting cuts and scrapes and we lost a little bit of blood here. We don’t have that now. And we’re way more stressed today than we were before. And that stress, again, impacts the adrenals. We have a huge issue regulating iron when the adrenals aren’t supported properly.

Leanne Vogel [00:33:04]

I would say of my small collection of male clients, because females are just like so into this kind of stuff. And it’s challenging.

Michael Rutherford [00:33:13]

It’s harder to find the males.

Leanne Vogel [00:33:14]

It is. It really is. Most of them are doing donations. And many of my menopausal ladies also usually not as much.

Michael Rutherford [00:33:22]

Yeah, anyone not menstruating, and I don’t mean that in a politically correct way, if you’re not menstruating, chances are. I won’t say you should donate. You should be able to donate safely. I won’t say you should because we might have to do some things to get you to a point where you can. I’ve had some people who came to who were so anemic simply because they were trying to do this great thing by donating regularly and they just pushed themselves. So for me, I’m a huge fan of like, I don’t donate until I have labs. And I recommend that for. Don’t donate unless you have labs.

Michael Rutherford [00:33:55]

Don’t trust their little finger prick drug blood test because that’s only checking to make sure you’re not overtly anemic now before you give a pint of blood.

Leanne Vogel [00:34:04]

Yeah, I have to. So my husband Kevin, who, you know, he donates blood like every three to four months and I have to beg him to go every time because he is terrified of needles. And the last time he went, they like went into an arm. They couldn’t find the vein. He had to do the other arm. They got the leg involved. And I’m like, I am so.

Michael Rutherford [00:34:25]

So that sounds like Nicole. Like, they have to get the pediatric needle in a heat pack usually to get hers. Like, it’s just not even to donate. She doesn’t donate. That’s just to get her blood work done.

Leanne Vogel [00:34:36]

Oh, my goodness. And she married you and you love blood work.

Michael Rutherford [00:34:41]

Like, literally, like the person at our lab corp. Like, she. It’s like one person who works at the vast majority of time. She knows she, like, especially Through a pregnancy. We were there multiple times throughout the pregnancy and she just knew, like, she would see her name on the sheet because we’d always get the first one in the morning and have the stuff ready. It was great. She was awesome.

Leanne Vogel [00:34:57]

Oh, that’s nice. It makes such a big difference and I want to make sure that people understand. We’re not saying that if you’re iron anemic or that you need iron that you should be donating. We’re kind of talking about the opposite side of the fact. When you have too much, would you say that it’s too much? Ferritin would be a sign that you need to donate. Or can we go a little bit more detailed into that for people that might not know?

Michael Rutherford [00:35:20]

Yeah. So we want to go a lot farther. There’s so many reasons. We could do a whole podcast. Just a ferritin. That’s.

Leanne Vogel [00:35:25]

Yeah, sorry, maybe that’s.

Michael Rutherford [00:35:29]

Should I come back for the 500th? We can do just ferritin. So ferritin. No. So the problem with ferritin is that it can be about iron and it can be completely separate of iron because it can be impacted by inflammation to the point where someone can be iron deficient and have a totally normal, healthy looking ferritin. And this is why running just the ferritin isn’t good, is that the inflammation can increase the ferritin. Just keep it simple and not even get into the why it can increase the ferritin. And so you might have high ferritin, normal or even low iron. So going just off the ferritin isn’t enough for me.

Michael Rutherford [00:36:09]

It’s like, I want to see healthy hemoglobin, healthy iron, healthy ferritin. And then we can donate.

Leanne Vogel [00:36:15]

Yes, completely. I see elevated ferritin a lot in inflammation. A lot of individuals who have MTHFR will usually have elevated ferritin. I see that quite often their homocysteine is also elevated. So it’s like a bigger pattern than just the one marker. And I mean, you taught me that.

Michael Rutherford [00:36:34]

Yeah, never go off. Why? The number one question I hate is, what do I do about this one marker? I’m like, I don’t know. You should need about 10 others before we even think about doing anything. And then I need to know your symptoms, I need to know your history, what you’ve been doing. Like, there’s just so many questions in it. And I get it. Like, we just. We’re suffering and we want answers and it’s.

Michael Rutherford [00:36:55]

The problem is it’s such a huge disservice to you. If I try to give you an answer based off of that, other than let’s pop on a call and have a conversation about working together, that’s the only one answer I can give you completely.

Leanne Vogel [00:37:08]

I think it’s like, you know those reels where people play, like the first 10 notes of a song and you can kind of guess what it is? I see that as like a blood work, too. If you play one note of a song, it’s going to be challenging for me to guess what song it is. But if you play 10. Not.

Michael Rutherford [00:37:23]

There’s a handful maybe.

Leanne Vogel [00:37:24]

But yeah, if you play like 10, I’m like, okay, okay. I think I’m getting the melody, and it’s very much like blood work.

Michael Rutherford [00:37:31]

Also, I might have to steal that. I love that.

Leanne Vogel [00:37:33]

Oh, thanks.

Michael Rutherford [00:37:34]

I’m gonna have to steal that one.

Leanne Vogel [00:37:35]

Okay. Please do. You’re like the man of. Is that an analogy? I don’t even know what that’s called, but yeah. Okay. It’s the only one I got.

Michael Rutherford [00:37:43]

I get that from my dad. Him and I, we’re. We love using. Because sometimes it’s just we’re often talking about these super complex things and it’s really hard to make it simple to understand. So trying to compare that to something that anyone can understand. I think that’s a great one.

Leanne Vogel [00:37:58]

Yes. Okay, great. Love it. Totally. You can steal it. I came up with that myself, so it’s yours. So to kind of wrap up this conversation, I want to talk about the individual markers a little bit more and just understanding what makes a complete iron panel. You talked a little bit about hemoglobin and red blood cells.

Leanne Vogel [00:38:17]

You talked about ferritin, the actual iron. Where does tibc, UIBC fit in saturation? Like, can we just get a full picture of what we should be looking for? If we think that we’re struggling with iron deficiency, or maybe the flip side of it, that we have enough iron but not like the CO factors in order to absorb that iron. Can we talk a little bit about those details?

Michael Rutherford [00:38:40]

Yeah. So let’s cover what I think would be the bare minimums of what we should get and not less. So this would be the bare minimum you want to request or get. If you have curiosities about this. Starting is the cbc, the cbc, ideally with what’s called CBC with differential. The CBC is your complete blood count. This looks at your red blood cells and white blood cells. The differential gives you the breakdown of the white blood cells.

Michael Rutherford [00:39:03]

There’s more helpful information in there. But the CBC is Going to cover your red blood cells, your hemoglobin, your hematocrit. Then what are what’s called your mcb, mch, mchc. These are just giving you more details about your hemoglobin and red blood cells and how they kind of relate to each other and what’s going on. On top of that, we’d want to get the. Typically you’re going to see it as like a complete iron panel, just depending on where you’re ordering it from. But that should contain at minimum your serum iron, TIBC or transferrin. Either one of those works.

Michael Rutherford [00:39:37]

Typically in the US it’s iron and tibc. A lot of overseas will use transferrin, but more or less transparent. And tibc are pretty interchangeable. They have different ranges, but their function is pretty interchangeable. So iron, TIBC and ferritin at the minimum, I want those three. Iron, TIBC and ferritin. As far as iron. Now probably you’re going to get iron saturation in there.

Michael Rutherford [00:39:58]

That’s bonus. And uibc, it’s going to be in there. Honestly, it’s kind of pointless. Iron saturation to a degree is redundant, but UIBC is super redundant. TIBC stands for total iron binding capacity. UIB C stands for unsaturated iron binding capacity. Once you realize what all these markers for, they start to be redundant. The iron saturation is simply redundant because it’s just an equation.

Michael Rutherford [00:40:22]

You don’t have to have it, you could still solve it. So it’s just your, it’s a relationship between your serum iron and your tibc. So if you have those two, really you could find your iron saturation and that’s all the lab does. They just do the equation and put it on there for you. But we’d want the cbc, iron, serum iron, TIBC and ferritin. Those would be like bare minimum with that. Like I said, you’re probably going to get the iron saturation in uibc, if you order that panel. Now, if we wanted to take it a step further and get more information, Vitamin A, retinol, which is really all they measure.

Michael Rutherford [00:40:57]

If you do that, especially through LabCorp copper, typically plasma or serum, and then ceruloplasmin. So those three are going to be super helpful to just give you that next step information to kind of understand a little bit more into that iron regulation. And that’s just looking at the iron and hemoglobin itself specifically, not necessarily diving into all of the other patterns that could come with it, depending on symptomology, history and things like that.

Leanne Vogel [00:41:25]

So we talked a little bit about adrenals. Is there anything that we need to cover on just hormones and its impact in this whole picture?

Michael Rutherford [00:41:33]

Yeah. So, you know, hormones and anemia are interesting because there’s like many things in the body. There are cycles, both ways that anemia can impact hormones, and hormones impact your iron regulation and, you know, risk for anemia as well. So, you know, we could start with anemia’s impact towards fertility and just healthy, healthy hormone cycle. You know, we can look at that through the lens of fertility because the more healthy your hormones are, the more fertile you are. And so one, is that an insufficient, you know, a lack of red blood cells or hemoglobin, meaning not enough oxygen delivery? Well, that’s going to impact the oxygen supply to your ovaries and your uterus, the ability to be fertile. If we’re missing those things, your body is going to struggle to make and release a healthy egg. So the lack of oxygen can directly impact the egg quality that you’re releasing.

Michael Rutherford [00:42:21]

That either leading to just infertility or miscarriage. So you might just enough to be fertilized, but then it just can’t carry. And so you might have a miscarriage. Then you have iron and thyroid. We kind of hinted at before, there’s a lot of intermix. We need iron to make heme, which is just a protein made of iron. And heme is directly responsible for the function within the thyroid gland. So if we’re iron deficient, we struggle to make healthy thyroid hormones.

Michael Rutherford [00:42:50]

And this becomes circular because thyroid hormone is one of three hormones that stimulate hemoglobin, red blood cell production. So three hormones are erythropoietin, which that’s about all it does. It comes from the kidneys. It’s the primary signal in everyone to the bone marrow to make red blood cells and hemoglobin. You have thyroid hormone that does this as well as testosterone. This is why men have higher levels of red blood cells and hemoglobin, because we have a lot more testosterone, hopefully. So then you run into the issue of women with testosterone overload. They have androgen excess, right? And sometimes we can actually see that because they have excess red blood cells and hemoglobin.

Michael Rutherford [00:43:29]

And that can point to this issue of PCOS and androgen excess simply with these really basic blood labs, which is sometimes really cool to see. So, you know, we’ve got that issue. Estrogen and iron is huge to the point of, I mean, we could really dig into, you know, when to optimize iron intake, when to down regular iron intake just based off of how your estrogen flows throughout the cycle. And what’s no surprise, God doesn’t mess up. Like, God knows what he’s doing, right? Like, he designs all bodies. Really incredible. Like, the way it’s supposed to function. Really incredible.

Michael Rutherford [00:44:04]

The base, you know, function of our bodies is not a mistake. So the way women’s estrogen is supposed to move after her period as her menses ending is in direct correlation to how it increases absorption of iron. So as a woman is finishing her menses, meaning she just lost a bunch of iron, her body increases how much it’s supposed to bring in. Her body will increase its absorption of iron as a direct result in the change of estrogen levels. Like, God doesn’t mess up. Like, he knows what he’s doing. So, you know, you could use this to your advantage. If you are low on iron man, that’s the time to, like, pack in the iron, right? Like, we want to increase that.

Michael Rutherford [00:44:50]

Whereas on the flip side, if we had iron overload, well, maybe we’re down. Like, maybe we’re eating more chicken and fish during that period. So, I mean, we can see so much of this going back and forth.

Leanne Vogel [00:45:07]

We know that we lose muscle as we age and that this loss massively affects our ability to function. Like, I’m talking basic tasks here. Muscle is important for protecting our joints and also keeping our metabolism revving. Basically, you want muscle, and unfortunately, a lot of us just don’t prioritize muscle maintenance or see it as an importance. And you may also be cringing at the idea of going to the gym and being able to maintain that muscle consistently. Yes, active moving is super good, and there’s really nothing like it when it comes to the mood boost of pumping iron. So when I share about urolithin A, I am not saying just to do this and you can maintain your muscle without movement. Well, like, I am saying that because urolithin A does do that.

Leanne Vogel [00:46:00]

But I think pairing your lithium A with exercise is likely the best path forward. So I started taking a product called Mito Pure to boost my performance and improve muscular strength. And Myopure has 500 milligrams per serving of urolithin A, a postbiotic shown to have major benefits to significantly increasing muscle strength and endurance with no other change in lifestyle. Yes, you heard that right. I just said that it has major benefits to significantly increase muscle strength and endurance with no other change to lifestyle. It gives your body the energy it needs to optimize its cellular power grid. Through boosted mitochondrial health without changes to lifestyle or diet. Now imagine what it could do with your low carb diet and a walking goal or a lifting goal a couple of times per week.

Leanne Vogel [00:46:58]

It took me a long time, like a couple of months to introduce mitopure to my day because it’s so strong. Every time I took it, I almost had too much energy, so I really had to titrate up. Mir is the first product to offer a precise dose of urolithin A to upgrade mitochondrial function, increase cellular energy and improve muscle strength and endurance. They’ve created three ways to get your daily dose of 500 milligrams of urolithin A. In their product Mitopure, they’ve got a delicious vanilla protein powder that combines muscle building protein with the cellular energy of Mitopure. Now this product does contain whey protein and then they have a berry powder that easily mixes into smoothies or just about any drink. This is dairy free. And finally the soft gels, which is what I prefer because it’s just easier.

Leanne Vogel [00:47:52]

This is also dairy free. I love the starter pack idea though. If you can handle the dairy, the three forms of Mito pure to play around with. Which one is your favorite? Top notch. So Timeline, the creators of Mito Pure is putting together a sweet little offer for you. 10 off your first order. So if you go to timeline nutrition.com KDP and use the code KDP, you’ll get 10 off your order. Again, that’s timeline nutrition.com KDP I recommend trying their starter pack with all three formats and picking out your best format.

Leanne Vogel [00:48:30]

Again, that’s timeline nutrition dot com KDP Totally random question. What do you want your job to be in heaven? Have you thought about it?

Michael Rutherford [00:48:41]

Praising God?

Leanne Vogel [00:48:42]

Okay, well, if we have jobs, would you like to join me in studying the perfect body? Because I pray for that often. I’m like, God, if there are jobs in heaven, I want to study how you make the perfect body. Like, what makes the perfect body? I think about it often. Like, is it perfect now?

Michael Rutherford [00:49:02]

It wouldn’t be a job though, because God already knows how.

Leanne Vogel [00:49:05]

Yeah, but I would just want to know, like, I would want to study the perfect body to, like, see.

Michael Rutherford [00:49:11]

I feel like we’d have to look at that as hobbies. Like, what would our hobby be in heaven?

Leanne Vogel [00:49:15]

Okay, what would my hobby be in heaven? Yeah, hobby for sure.

Michael Rutherford [00:49:18]

I would totally be down for. It’s like, that’s my hobby. If I’m not praising Jesus and God, I’m figuring out how you did. Yeah, like, what Were we supposed to be like, let me see those blueprints for sure.

Leanne Vogel [00:49:30]

Like just like how it’s supposed to operate. Like I think about it often because it’s already so cool like as you’re talking and just all those intricacies and we see it every day when we look at blood work and we’re like, wow, this and that and that. And it’s all like, it all just works. It’s incredible. But yeah, the perfect body.

Michael Rutherford [00:49:48]

Well, Studio 20 is back in what, the 50s? Well, how did I just forget? John Lennon, the lead singer of the Beatles, he said, he basically said, there will soon become a time, as we advance in science, that Christianity and religion will become non existent. You know, it’s funny, the more technological advance we get in fact, and the higher in science we get, we’re growing. Religion, it hasn’t gone anywhere and we’re actually seeing a resurgence and it’s growing because the reality is, when you understand how intricate this all is, for you to actually think that it’s by chance and that there isn’t a creator is. You are willfully ignorant about it. You’re choosing to ignore logic. It is completely illogical to think that there isn’t a creator doesn’t. And we’re not meant to get to the point of the Christian God. That’s a whole different conversation.

Michael Rutherford [00:50:42]

But just a God, a creator that you could look at any of this and say there isn’t one by chance. Like what?

Leanne Vogel [00:50:49]

But I mean I did. So, like here we are. So you have a program coming out very, very soon. Can you tell us about your course and what people can expect and all the things.

Michael Rutherford [00:51:02]

Yeah, so I mean if you want to know, you know, what kind of results you might expect or could expect from learning from this, look at Leanne. Leanne is a fantastic example of what can come about, of this. It’s been amazing to see just how much yours is, but I remember the first time you’re like, look what my business did within four months of taking your course like it was. And you had been practicing for a long time.

Leanne Vogel [00:51:24]

Yeah, like 13 years.

Michael Rutherford [00:51:26]

Yeah, it’s not like you were new to the game. So yeah, it’s amazing. It’s 12 weeks long. There are, we go through so many, I mean there’s 30 plus hours of pre recorded content in the course that you take the 12 weeks to go through, along with 90 minute to two hour live calls each week throughout those 12 weeks. They’re never shorter than 90 minutes anymore. Most of them are two or two hours if Leanne is in the call, it’s like two and a half because no one asks more questions than Leanne, but they’re always amazing questions. So when I, like, I have like, some that I say, like, I used that class that you were in because the calls were so good. But I mean, we go over all of the basics.

Michael Rutherford [00:52:07]

We cover this stuff times 10. You know, we cover thyroid, we cover advanced cardiovascular markers, we go into nutrients, we go into vitamin D metabolism, into immune patterns and parasites, and you’re, you know, we. Blood sugar, for sure. We go through all of those things. One of the things that I always tell people is the big difference between mine and the biggest difference between mine and anyone else’s course who does this is you can come back to any live call you want. Leanne took this course two years ago and she could come back next month when we start back up and she can join the live course. She can ask questions. It’s no more expense to me.

Michael Rutherford [00:52:43]

And really, it just increases the benefit of those calls. So why would I not want other people to come back? And so that happens regularly.

Leanne Vogel [00:52:50]

Yes. I think it was three years ago that I took your course. Was it only two?

Michael Rutherford [00:52:54]

Yeah. No. So it would have been 20, 21, because you were in that. You were in that first year. So, yeah.

Leanne Vogel [00:53:00]

Oh, it was life changing. I often think, like, I should probably go through it again because there’s probably so much that I just, you know, you get into the habits as a practitioner that you just, like, you stop thinking about other things. So I love that I could join anytime and kind of bother you with all my questions again for a bother. I’ll be. I’ll be sure to include the link to all of that. Michael, thank you for coming on the show again. You are just such a wealth of knowledge. You know your stuff inside and out.

Leanne Vogel [00:53:28]

I’m always so impressed. So thanks for coming on.

Michael Rutherford [00:53:31]

I love being here.

Leanne Vogel [00:53:33]

Thanks for hanging out with us today again. The link in the show notes will take you to Michael’s course, which starts July 9th. And if you want to save a little bit, you can use the code Leanne. That’s L E A N N E during purchase for savings. Okay, we’ll see you back here next week for another episode. Thanks for listening to the Health Healthful Pursuit podcast. Join us next Tuesday for another episode of the show. If you’re looking for free resources, there are a couple of places you can go.

Leanne Vogel [00:54:06]

The first to my blog, healthfulpursuit.com where you’re going to find loads of recipes. The second is a free parasite protocol that I’ve put together for you that outlines symptoms, testing and resources to determine whether or not you have a parasite, plus a full protocol to follow to eradicate them from your life if you need to. That’s available at healthfulpursuit.com parasites and last but certainly not least, a full list of blood work markers to ask your doctor for so that you can get a full picture of your health. You can grab that free resource by going to healthfulpursuit.com labs the helpful pursuit Podcast, including show notes and links, provides information in respect to healthy living recipes, nutrition and diet and is intended for informational purposes only. The information provided is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment, nor is it to be construed as such. We cannot guarantee that the information provided on the Healthful Pursuit Podcast reflects the most up to date medical research. Information is provided without any representation or warranties of any kind. Please consult a qualified health practitioner with any questions you may have regarding your health and nutrition program.

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